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Post by Stickzula Mon 04 Apr 2011, 5:31 pm

Looks like you've got a little lab factory. If you saw eyeballs it is ok to strip. Even if they still have some egg sack remaining they will be fine. As long as they can wriggle around there is no need for them to be tumbled. Just keep fresh water flowing through the net.

You can even strip immediately after a spawn if you put the eggs into a tumbler. I have had 100% hatch rate using a tumbler. The basic idea is to keep oxygenated water flowing over the eggs so they don't necrose. Some argue that the fry need to be free swimming prior to being removed from the tumbler, but I have had great success removing them from the tumbler/mother with as much as 1/2 the egg sack remaining.

If I were you I would build a tumbler just in case. I always had one on hand and it really saved the day several times whenever I had a fish spit in the net too early. They are cheap and easy to build and take up very little space.

It's up to you obviously, but unless you know how long she has been holding I would strip her the first chance you get. Worst case you lose a spawn, but I think that would be highly unlikely since you saw some eyes in there. If they end up being underdeveloped, mostly egg, you could put an air stone in the basket to help oxygenate. Like I said you should be fine.
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Post by Stickzula Mon 04 Apr 2011, 7:48 pm

I just did a write up on building a tumbler if you're interested. Mouthbrooder Egg Tumbler
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Post by Shank Mon 04 Apr 2011, 10:25 pm

Stickzula wrote:I just did a write up on building a tumbler if you're interested. Mouthbrooder Egg Tumbler

I read your instructions Stick, seems like a good way to do it. The first time the lab was preggers I toyed with the idea of putting one together but I think as long as you're vigilant about watching for the tell tale signs (not eating, the crook that forms in their gullet, etc) it's better to keep them with the mom (unless she's cares more about food, that's entirely different.) Needless to say I haven't put one together yet but did some poking around various how-to's and I definitely think it'd be a cool project to do sometime just to have around. I've also seen a guy make one out of a couple bird feeders, same principle as the vacuum, except he used two feeder tubes one which fit inside the other so you could access the egg chamber a little more easily. Seems like you can be as simple or as complicated as you want with it lol.
I'm definitely considering a tumbler for the larger Acei F that keeps eating her eggs after a couple days. Now, regarding the other, more well-behaved and RESPONSIBLE, Acei F I attempted to strip her last night, but seeing as it was getting late and it became apparent I was going to have to remove the Holey rock in order to grab her I decided to hold off for a while... well after reading your post I went ahead and stripped her tonight with relative ease (after the holey rock of course!). 35 fry in total, I was expecting them to be smaller than the lab fry, but to be honest for as developed as they are they're smaller than I thought they'd be!

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Post by Stickzula Mon 04 Apr 2011, 11:23 pm

Never had acei so I wouldn't know what to expect size wise. I'm sure they'll get some size on 'em once you start feeding. Baby brine shrimp(BBS) is a great and inexpensive way to get them growing quick. It is a bit of a pain to maintain a shrimp hatchery, but it has it's benefits. You don't need to worry about the protein/bloat with fry like you do with adults. Their intestines process the food faster in the fry stage so bloat isn't an issue. I've fed fry as much BBS as they could eat for the first month or so and never had any problems with bloat. Something to think about.

I'd like to see that bird feeder tumbler. . . sounds interesting. I made mine the way I did because I needed it ASAP and had everything laying around in my fish . . . hmm "closet" lol. I made the first one with hot glue and used it immediately after it cooled. Like I said before it saved the day. . . and many more after that. As for accessing the eggs, I rarely needed to bother with them once I put them in. Whenever I had some go necrose I just popped the lid off and sucked them out with a turkey baster, but to each his own.
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Post by Shank Mon 04 Apr 2011, 11:39 pm

BBS would be great, however my wife its going to murder me if I get any more talks, 2 liter bottles, I got serious grumblings when she found about about the batch of aci bein stripped... i'd have to set it up in secret and make sureit was kitty proof. Hikari first bites for the first week or so till they can eat the micro pellets, since the acei are so small I might look at crushed flake as a go between from the powder to pellets... we shall see haha. 101 fry in a 29G isn't overcrowding right? Wink
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Post by Stickzula Tue 05 Apr 2011, 12:40 pm

LOL you kid about 101 fry being overcrowded, but I actually raised over 65 kenyi to 1.25"+ in a 10g tank. Talk about overcrowding. You will be fine with the 29g, just keep selling fry before they get big enough to eat the newest batch and you'll do good.

Sounds like you have a good handle on feeding. I used Hikari First Bites once, then I just put the normal pellet in a coffee grinder. Same basic result, but a lot cheaper. I would recommend NLS Growth formula or at the least the Small Fish formula once they get big enough for a micro pellet. I have had better results for growth with NLS than any other pellet.

Just to let you know, San Fransisco Bay makes a micro hatchery called the Shrimpery. It is only about 3" cubed with a pill bottle looking thing coming out the top that acts as the collection cup. Very discrete and just about as cat proof as you can get. I used one for a long time until my feeding demands became much greater than the output. Then I went to 2 liters. The nice thing about the Shrimpery is that the BBS swim right into the collection cup and you just dump them into the tank. No separating shells or rinsing required.

There is also another discrete option by Tom Aquatics that you put inside the tank. The shrimp hatch inside the contraption and then swim right out into the tank. Not sure how they work it so no salt gets into the water, but it is supposed to be a pretty good system. I never tried it mainly because what I was doing was working good enough and I wanted control over when and how much to feed.

If you end up doing BBS at all I would recommend getting high quality eggs to start with. You will have much better success. I have not had good luck with the eggs available at the big box stores. They don't have a very high hatch rate and they are WAY too expensive. I got a 4oz(113g) pouch of 90% hatch rate eggs from Jehmco for $14. Generally you buy them in the big box store in 6g vials. To equal the value the 6g vial would have to be priced @ $0.75. You won't find the cheapest crap for less than $1.99. Anyway enough of my rant . . . I HATE the big box stores!
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Post by Shank Thu 14 Apr 2011, 12:48 am

The Lab's preggers again haha!

I also picked up some of the NLS Growth Formula a couple days ago on my way back north from downtown, have to say the fish really like it but it seems like the used the term 'sinking' with some poetic license... Since the granules are still a little too large I've tested crushed a pinch with some spoons and feeding it to the Acei fry. I definitely like this because the crushed granules are 'less' powderized than the First bites formula, which I feel is really only usefull for the first week or so... After that I've noticed a bit of a limbo between the powder and when they're big enough to eat micro pellets. This lets me fill that gap with some thing a little more substantial Smile

My only complaint is it seems to clowd up the water more than some of the other foods I've tried, but I kind of blame myself for this because I'm still overfeeding like nobodies business...
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Post by Shank Thu 14 Apr 2011, 1:32 am

Here's a photo update on the fry tank Smile
Acei Fry:
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Labs:
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Brichardi:
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(picked up three of these guys on a whim, anyone interested in them when they're larger let me know(or any of the fry fro that matter LOL!)!)
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Post by Yeti Thu 14 Apr 2011, 4:38 am

After the saga of the son of the girl that i work with and his taking the fish out one by one and wiping the Ick off them, and his obsession with catching the long strands of poo, so they don't get his ammonia filled tank dirty, I think perhaps, to show your true degree of obsession, you need to supply your male Lab with fishy condoms? Or have a word with Momma Lab about planned parenthood!
You may even be able to use this as an excuse to have your good lady agree to you having a couple of the Oscars? "But honey, they will sort out all the fry! GULP".
The white's are very pretty, but what are they? The shape looks peacockish, but I thought you were more Mbuna biased.
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Post by Stickzula Thu 14 Apr 2011, 1:23 pm

The white one is a Neolamprologus Brichardi. It is a species from the other rift lake Tanganyika. Here is an article Neolamprologus brichardi

When they get big enough to sex, I may be interested in a male. I could also be convinced to take a male acei off your hands if you can get them about 3". Anything smaller would likely be considered a nice snack in my tank.
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Post by aquaman Thu 14 Apr 2011, 2:46 pm

ive got a 4" yellow lab that im not wanting anymore....
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Post by Stickzula Thu 14 Apr 2011, 3:02 pm

aquaman wrote:ive got a 4" yellow lab that im not wanting anymore....
If that was to me, I'm good on labs, I was talking about the brichardi and the acei
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Post by Shank Thu 14 Apr 2011, 4:18 pm

Stickzula wrote:The white one is a Neolamprologus Brichardi. It is a species from the other rift lake Tanganyika. Here is an article Neolamprologus brichardi

When they get big enough to sex, I may be interested in a male. I could also be convinced to take a male acei off your hands if you can get them about 3". Anything smaller would likely be considered a nice snack in my tank.

Ya I'm only thinking about keeping one for the brichardi once they're larger so if any of them turn out to be male it's yours, also I've got a few Acei Male already at 3", wouldn't be against parting with one of them. Got anything cool to trade?
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Post by Stickzula Thu 14 Apr 2011, 5:11 pm

I've got a lg red fin tinfoil barb somewhere around 5". These are supposed to max out between 6-8" May get a little big for your setup, but is really cool in the mixed african setup. I have angelfish coming out my ears and I could part with a german blue ram or a bristlenose pleco or 2. I could also hook you up with an egg tumbler and pump if you want one of my diy jobs.
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Post by aquaman Thu 14 Apr 2011, 9:41 pm

its for anyone who wants to come pick it up, i live in nacogdoches
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Post by Shank Wed 27 Apr 2011, 1:48 am

With having to rebuild my system I've been a bit preoccupied reorganizing/getting everything back to SOP. Photoshop is still missing at this point because the discs just happened to disappear from the office and our backup copy is failing to identify as a legitimate disc (RAT FARTS!). Anyway, seeing as it's been a while I wanted to add a few new pics and updates on what's been going on in the world of my rabidly fornicating fish....

The Labs:
As of last night I had my largest haul to date, the third gen of lab brought a class of 48 to the tank... I must admit I was a little too hasty in stripping all still had fairly large eggsacks. I moved the breeder net to a position where a powerhead was blowing up at an angle ensuring as good a circulation as possible through the floor of the net. This seems to be working fairly well and, with the exception of two which passed while I was at work, they are all currently swimming freely about the net. Regarding the ones that croaked, the bottom half of the egg sacks were white which I think is necrosis right?

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The Acei:
The first batch of acei are doing fine and have been displaying some interesting differences, both within their population, as well as the other fry. These guys are just about 1/2" at the moment. I also added another gen on Saturday, total count 37 but one was dead/died when i stripped the female (she had a rock in her mouth?!). These guys are currently sharing space in the breeder with the new labs but should be free roaming at the end of the week...

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Post by Yeti Wed 27 Apr 2011, 2:18 am

If it's the water there that causes such fertility...... your wife must be panicing!!

How many tanks is that running now? (Hides the fact we now have 4 running...but two are my g/f's, the contagious effect is slowly spreading... I hope)
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Post by Shank Wed 27 Apr 2011, 11:29 am

Haha, I'm not sure water beats out birth control!
At the moment I'm still only running 2 tanks, the 60g and 29g, it looks like the influx and outflux of fry going in to the time they're good to go to market is about even at the moment. I'm a bit nervous about the last two batches crowding up the tank when they get big but I'll deal with this problem when I come to it haha!
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Post by Stickzula Wed 27 Apr 2011, 11:32 am

Good looking fry! Are you taking any of the larger labs to the auction this weekend?

How many tanks is that running now? (Hides the fact we now have 4 running...but two are my g/f's, the contagious effect is slowly spreading... I hope)
LOL sounds like you've got a bout of MTS (multiple tank syndrome) There's only two known cures. You have to either run out of space or money. It usually isn't completely cured unless both happen. A haughty spouse tends to ease the symptoms, but hasn't been shown to be a cure. LOL
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Post by Shank Sat 11 Jun 2011, 4:05 am

Long story short, work's been shitty... family drama... had a couple fish croak... anywhoo here's a vid of the baby tank, anyone interested in labs or acei, let me know Smile
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CODEvqxxecI
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Post by Yeti Sat 11 Jun 2011, 8:35 am

I was starting to wonder where you had disappeared to. Hope you've managed to get everything sorted. As for the babies, they've really come on well and look good.
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Post by Stickzula Sat 11 Jun 2011, 12:10 pm

Nice! Great job raising them up.
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Post by Shank Sun 12 Jun 2011, 5:52 am

Thanks! Traded the first group of labs in and immediately picked up a group of Blue Dorsal Flavescens (1M2F.) Sadly, I found of the female's croaked corpse wedged behind my heater earlier this week... along with an acei I 'thought' was dead... which wasn't... and i tried to nurse for 2 days before it gave up... Any suggestions on how to use the pico tank I picked up I'm all ears. I was thinking it could be a permanent solution to the breeder nets I've been plowing though, suggestions on filters/hoods/lighting for this size tank would be appreciated... I'll also be checking out the pico threads here, definitely going to reread Donnie's Pico build Wink
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Post by Stickzula Sun 12 Jun 2011, 10:29 am

Sucks about the peacock Sad Did you find the acei in the same spot? I've used a 5g eclipse tank for new fry before. It worked out pretty good. If you go that route, don't worry about a hood. Get an led clip light, a small heater, and a small sponge filter and you're set for raising fry.

It's hard to give other suggestions since you didn't say what size or shape it is, I'll assume that it is less than 5g cube. I'd plant it and do a school of tetras and some otos. Doesn't matter what type of tetra. Rummynose, cardinal, neon, pristilla, lemon, etc. will work. Stay away from the larger ones like emperor and penguin. I'm having good success with the Walstad method in a 10g tank so I'd recommend that as a low tech, low maintenance method for a planted tank. It's low light with no co2, no ferts, and very little cleaning. It won't work with all plants you need to pick low to medium light plants, but there's plenty to choose from.
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Post by Shank Mon 13 Jun 2011, 1:51 am

Ya, I was quite sad... the acei had wedged itself behind a java fern and was motionless (why I assumed it was dead to begin with,) He was already swimming inverted by the time I got him into the holding tank so I didnt have very high hopes but wanted to try as hard as I could (I hate flushing the bastards...) the tank I picked up is a 2.5G rectangle so pretty small... anything bigger and I think the wife would have thought I was trying to sneak another tank by her Razz
I'm not familiar with the walstad method but I think I may know what you're talking about, in which case I agree, this would be the best route... I think i'd like to set up a low maintenance tank for the wifey with a beta or a couple tetras like you suggested... unfortunately I have cats so a lid is pretty much mandatory haha! LED would be a good way to go if I can find a good deal online.
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